The List 5234 TGB
To All,
Good Sunday morning. Yes I still hate this time change and there were only 6 of us this morning waiting for the gym to open. Nice part was there were no crowds on the equipment and it did not start to fill up for over 2 hours which made a great workout. Now I need a nap.
skip
ROLLING THUNDER REMEMBERED… and Dean Rusk’s Leaks---Continued
The following is an exchange that took place last night and this morning between two of our most dedicated members of the list. The Bear and Micro both have an opinion and both sides have their opinion about the leaking of our plans to the NVN on when and where we were going to strike. As we learn more about the history as papers, notes and such are declassified we may some day have smoking gun that clears it all up. But they better hurry because those of us that were there all have an opinion and we are not getting any younger.
skip
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Taylor <beartaylor@comcast.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 11:16 PM
Subject: ROLLING THUNDER REMEMBERED… and Dean Rusk’s Leaks
Gentlemen...
For Micro, thanks for the “holier than thou” lecture delivered in Skip’s history lesson today.
For Shadow, thanks for the spirited support.
For all. Micro and I are on opposite sides, probably forever, on the issue of Dean Rusk’s priorities with respect to bombing North Vietnam. The referenced RTR blog of two years ago (see below) includes my personal experience with the State Department’s readiness to “leak” target information during Rolling Thunder ops. The correspondence I refer to is now included in my “collection” in the Texas Tech Vietnam Archives. Specifically, the announcement in Newsweek in January 1967 that the Navy carriers would strike the Haiphong thermal power plants when the weather allowed and the subsequent exchange of letters between my father and the White House. My Dad was told the Newsweek Periscope note was unsupportable. However, when the weather cleared in May we bombed the power plants. The enemy was well prepared for our arrival.
By itself, this personal experience provides little evidence of rampant leaking of target info to the North Vietnamese in order to limit collateral damage. But my experience has led me to dig deep for further evidence of State Department participation in RT ops. My search continues and my hypothesis that Rusk was a rascal —or useful idiot— grows more certain as the classified records of yesteryear become available to the public. Records of conversations from 50+ years ago continue to pour forth to feed my interest in what was going on in Washington during my years in Southeast Asia.
I can assure you that the years of now declassified conversations between Johnson, Rusk and McNamara provide references to the motivation of all three to avoid collateral damage and bad press as a top priority in our bombing of North Vietnam. There are also multiple records of Rusk using back channel Swiss Embassy contacts to feed info to NVN, including our RT ops. In addition, the testimony of LGEN Piotrowski detailed by Micro and in my reference RTR below carries far more weight with me than it obviously does with Micro. The fact that the Piotrowski charge has never been challenged, and allowed to stand for decades, tells me the general’s tale is credible.
Micro has a lot more confidence in the integrity and reliability of our State Department secretaries and others at the head of our government than I do. History is on my side. Rascals abound in Foggy Bottom. Always have, always will. I only have to mention Hillary Clinton and John Kerry to make my point. Leaking for political advantage is part and parcel of SecState’s toolbox.
Rusk was a leaker. His motivation with regard to RT ops was to limit collateral damage from our bombing in North Vietnam. He sweated the entry of China and the Soviet Union and an expansion of the war. He also had to deal with the charge by many in the international community that he and the United States were conducting an undeclared war and crimes against humanity by bombing North Vietnam. He leaked to defend his and our Rolling Thunder decisions as limited and conscionable. CYA. The unintended consequences of his leaks included angrier skies for the warriors of Rolling Thunder.
Micro. Please spare me further lectures. I am too old to give a damn. Thanks.
Bear🇺🇸⚓️🐻
http://www.rollingthunderremembered.com/rolling-thunder-remembered-28-and-29-february-1968-two-days-of-bombing/
Bear, et al:
I apologize for having seemed to be "lecturing" or with a "holier than thou" attitude. Neither was intended.
My only point is that GEN Piotrowski's assertion, upon which so many inaccurate opinions are based, is not correct. He could not have remembered seeing the Arnett show interview he quotes in his book because it did not happen. That has not been allowed to stand unchallenged, thus any assumed accuracy is misplaced.
To pursue that point, it turns out that the entire series that he claimed to have watched, The Ten Thousand Day War, is now available on DVD. I have just ordered it and will watch the 26 half-hour episodes. Bear, if you’ll send me your address, I’ll send you the set so you can do the same.
Here’s the link: https://www.amazon.com/Vietnam-Ten-Thousand-Day-4DVD/dp/B00ARWXJ54/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2J7J9V5NBXJR0&keywords=the+ten+thousand+day+war&qid=1583673136&sprefix=ten+thousand+day+war%2Caps%2C170&sr=8-2
Micro
Thanks to Deuce for a lighter moment
Make sure you go to Full Screen with Sound.
Make sure you go to Full Screen with Sound.
https://youtu.be/esPK1WM4YJQ
Fighter Jets and Airshow in 4K Slow Motion (Super-zoom)
Fighter Jet Flybys in Slow Motion is what I captured here as well as some air show extras like the MV-22 Osprey, A-10 Warthog, Red Arrows T1, F-16, F-22 Rapt...
youtu.be
Thanks to Ray
I can’t respond to the comment re: telling the VN what our targets were, but I can tell you that I sat in CNO’s intel briefs at the beginning of the hostilities and watched as SAM sites were being constructed, when the radars were installed, and when the missiles were in place. None of the sites were allowed to be hit in the beginning of construction (by direction from McNamara and Johnson) unless the SAM’s were in place and the aircraft were fired upon. As you can imagine once the pilots knew they were being fired at they dumped their loads and had to take evasive action – what else could they do. As we all know that was a hell of a way to fight a war.
Ray Donnelly
Thanks to Carl for another note where there is an SME that tells us not to panic. Like our fearless leader in California has.
(PLEASE READ this article by a real subject expert offers sane/common sense advice! I am becoming more convinced each passing day that the presstitute media is promoting panic in order to harm the economy and President Trump!)
I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession.
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/03/an_infectious_disease_doctor_has_a_message_about_the_real_epidemic_out_there.html
March 8, 2020
An infectious disease doctor has a message about the real epidemic out there
By Andrea Widburg
You know that someone has struck a nerve when his Facebook post about coronavirus has well over 632,000 shares. That’s the case with a post that Abdu Sharkawy, an infectious diseases specialist, wrote about coronavirus. His is the modern version of Franklin Roosevelt’s famous warning to Americans on the occasion of his First Inaugural Address, that “the only thing we have to fear is fear itself.”
Sharkaway works for the University Health Network, which is affiliated with the University of Toronto Faculty of Medicine. It is also the largest health research organization in North America. An infectious disease specialist at this organization must be presumed to have a better knowledge about coronavirus than talking heads on the news or the writers at the New York Times and Washington Post.
Whatever you’ve been thinking about coronavirus, this post will give you some rare clarity on the issue:
I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared.
I am not scared of Covid-19. I am concerned about the implications of a novel infectious agent that has spread the world over and continues to find new footholds in different soil. I am rightly concerned for the welfare of those who are elderly, in frail health or disenfranchised who stand to suffer mostly, and disproportionately, at the hands of this new scourge. But I am not scared of Covid-19.
What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic, stockpiling obscene quantities of anything that could fill a bomb shelter adequately in a post-apocalyptic world. I am scared of the N95 masks that are stolen from hospitals and urgent care clinics where they are actually needed for front line healthcare providers and instead are being donned in airports, malls, and coffee lounges, perpetuating even more fear and suspicion of others. I am scared that our hospitals will be overwhelmed with anyone who thinks they " probably don't have it but may as well get checked out no matter what because you just never know..." and those with heart failure, emphysema, pneumonia and strokes will pay the price for overfilled ER waiting rooms with only so many doctors and nurses to assess.
I am scared that travel restrictions will become so far reaching that weddings will be canceled, graduations missed and family reunions will not materialize. And well, even that big party called the Olympic Games...that could be kyboshed too. Can you even imagine?
I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession.
But mostly, I'm scared about what message we are telling our kids when faced with a threat. Instead of reason, rationality, openmindedness and altruism, we are telling them to panic, be fearful, suspicious, reactionary and self-interested.
Covid-19 is nowhere near over. It will be coming to a city, a hospital, a friend, even a family member near you at some point. Expect it. Stop waiting to be surprised further. The fact is the virus itself will not likely do much harm when it arrives. But our own behaviors and "fight for yourself above all else" attitude could prove disastrous.
I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education. We have an opportunity to learn a great deal about health hygiene and limiting the spread of innumerable transmissible diseases in our society. Let's meet this challenge together in the best spirit of compassion for others, patience, and above all, an unfailing effort to seek truth, facts and knowledge as opposed to conjecture, speculation and catastrophizing.
Facts not fear. Clean hands. Open hearts.
Our children will thank us for it.
#washurhands#geturflushot#respect#patiencenotpanic
Also, remember that, while panic can be a useful short-term incentive (although it often leads to bad decisions), it’s not a sustainable long-term emotion. Marie Vassiltchikov’s Berlin Diaries, 1940-1945 tells about her time working in Nazi Germany and helping groups within Germany that were fighting Hitler. One of the points she makes as she writes in real-time about the paranoia of the Third Reich and the terror from Allied bombings is that people adjust. What induces panic in the beginning eventually becomes tolerable, no matter how awful it is.
If Sharkawy is correct about coronavirus and the mainstream media is wrong, it won't be the end of the world and we’ll learn to live with it.
To All,
Good Sunday morning. Yes I still hate this time change and there were only 6 of us this morning waiting for the gym to open. Nice part was there were no crowds on the equipment and it did not start to fill up for over 2 hours which made a great workout. Now I need a nap.
skip
ROLLING THUNDER REMEMBERED… and Dean Rusk’s Leaks---Continued
The following is an exchange that took place last night and this morning between two of our most dedicated members of the list. The Bear and Micro both have an opinion and both sides have their opinion about the leaking of our plans to the NVN on when and where we were going to strike. As we learn more about the history as papers, notes and such are declassified we may some day have smoking gun that clears it all up. But they better hurry because those of us that were there all have an opinion and we are not getting any younger.
skip
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Taylor <beartaylor@comcast.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 11:16 PM
Subject: ROLLING THUNDER REMEMBERED… and Dean Rusk’s Leaks
Gentlemen...
For Micro, thanks for the “holier than thou” lecture delivered in Skip’s history lesson today.
For Shadow, thanks for the spirited support.
For all. Micro and I are on opposite sides, probably forever, on the issue of Dean Rusk’s priorities with respect to bombing North Vietnam. The referenced RTR blog of two years ago (see below) includes my personal experience with the State Department’s readiness to “leak” target information during Rolling Thunder ops. The correspondence I refer to is now included in my “collection” in the Texas Tech Vietnam Archives. Specifically, the announcement in Newsweek in January 1967 that the Navy carriers would strike the Haiphong thermal power plants when the weather allowed and the subsequent exchange of letters between my father and the White House. My Dad was told the Newsweek Periscope note was unsupportable. However, when the weather cleared in May we bombed the power plants. The enemy was well prepared for our arrival.
By itself, this personal experience provides little evidence of rampant leaking of target info to the North Vietnamese in order to limit collateral damage. But my experience has led me to dig deep for further evidence of State Department participation in RT ops. My search continues and my hypothesis that Rusk was a rascal —or useful idiot— grows more certain as the classified records of yesteryear become available to the public. Records of conversations from 50+ years ago continue to pour forth to feed my interest in what was going on in Washington during my years in Southeast Asia.
I can assure you that the years of now declassified conversations between Johnson, Rusk and McNamara provide references to the motivation of all three to avoid collateral damage and bad press as a top priority in our bombing of North Vietnam. There are also multiple records of Rusk using back channel Swiss Embassy contacts to feed info to NVN, including our RT ops. In addition, the testimony of LGEN Piotrowski detailed by Micro and in my reference RTR below carries far more weight with me than it obviously does with Micro. The fact that the Piotrowski charge has never been challenged, and allowed to stand for decades, tells me the general’s tale is credible.
Micro has a lot more confidence in the integrity and reliability of our State Department secretaries and others at the head of our government than I do. History is on my side. Rascals abound in Foggy Bottom. Always have, always will. I only have to mention Hillary Clinton and John Kerry to make my point. Leaking for political advantage is part and parcel of SecState’s toolbox.
Rusk was a leaker. His motivation with regard to RT ops was to limit collateral damage from our bombing in North Vietnam. He sweated the entry of China and the Soviet Union and an expansion of the war. He also had to deal with the charge by many in the international community that he and the United States were conducting an undeclared war and crimes against humanity by bombing North Vietnam. He leaked to defend his and our Rolling Thunder decisions as limited and conscionable. CYA. The unintended consequences of his leaks included angrier skies for the warriors of Rolling Thunder.
Micro. Please spare me further lectures. I am too old to give a damn. Thanks.
Bear🇺🇸⚓️🐻
http://www.rollingthunderremembered.com/rolling-thunder-remembered-28-and-29-february-1968-two-days-of-bombing/
Bear, et al:
I apologize for having seemed to be "lecturing" or with a "holier than thou" attitude. Neither was intended.
My only point is that GEN Piotrowski's assertion, upon which so many inaccurate opinions are based, is not correct. He could not have remembered seeing the Arnett show interview he quotes in his book because it did not happen. That has not been allowed to stand unchallenged, thus any assumed accuracy is misplaced.
To pursue that point, it turns out that the entire series that he claimed to have watched, The Ten Thousand Day War, is now available on DVD. I have just ordered it and will watch the 26 half-hour episodes. Bear, if you’ll send me your address, I’ll send you the set so you can do the same.
Here’s the link: https://www.amazon.com/Vietnam-Ten-Thousand-Day-4DVD/dp/B00ARWXJ54/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2J7J9V5NBXJR0&keywords=the+ten+thousand+day+war&qid=1583673136&sprefix=ten+thousand+day+war%2Caps%2C170&sr=8-2
Micro
<T><><H><><E><><L><><I><><S><><T>
Thanks to Deuce for a lighter moment
Make sure you go to Full Screen with Sound.
Make sure you go to Full Screen with Sound.
https://youtu.be/esPK1WM4YJQ
Fighter Jets and Airshow in 4K Slow Motion (Super-zoom)
Fighter Jet Flybys in Slow Motion is what I captured here as well as some air show extras like the MV-22 Osprey, A-10 Warthog, Red Arrows T1, F-16, F-22 Rapt...
youtu.be
<T><><H><><E><><L><><I><><S><><T>
Thanks to Ray
I can’t respond to the comment re: telling the VN what our targets were, but I can tell you that I sat in CNO’s intel briefs at the beginning of the hostilities and watched as SAM sites were being constructed, when the radars were installed, and when the missiles were in place. None of the sites were allowed to be hit in the beginning of construction (by direction from McNamara and Johnson) unless the SAM’s were in place and the aircraft were fired upon. As you can imagine once the pilots knew they were being fired at they dumped their loads and had to take evasive action – what else could they do. As we all know that was a hell of a way to fight a war.
Ray Donnelly
<T><><H><><E><><L><><I><><S><><T>
Thanks to Carl for another note where there is an SME that tells us not to panic. Like our fearless leader in California has.
(PLEASE READ this article by a real subject expert offers sane/common sense advice! I am becoming more convinced each passing day that the presstitute media is promoting panic in order to harm the economy and President Trump!)
I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession.
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/03/an_infectious_disease_doctor_has_a_message_about_the_real_epidemic_out_there.html
March 8, 2020
An infectious disease doctor has a message about the real epidemic out there
By Andrea Widburg
You know that someone has struck a nerve when his Facebook post about coronavirus has well over 632,000 shares. That’s the case with a post that Abdu Sharkawy, an infectious diseases specialist, wrote about coronavirus. His is the modern version of Franklin Roosevelt’s famous warning to Americans on the occasion of his First Inaugural Address, that “the only thing we have to fear is fear itself.”
Sharkaway works for the University Health Network, which is affiliated with the University of Toronto Faculty of Medicine. It is also the largest health research organization in North America. An infectious disease specialist at this organization must be presumed to have a better knowledge about coronavirus than talking heads on the news or the writers at the New York Times and Washington Post.
Whatever you’ve been thinking about coronavirus, this post will give you some rare clarity on the issue:
I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared.
I am not scared of Covid-19. I am concerned about the implications of a novel infectious agent that has spread the world over and continues to find new footholds in different soil. I am rightly concerned for the welfare of those who are elderly, in frail health or disenfranchised who stand to suffer mostly, and disproportionately, at the hands of this new scourge. But I am not scared of Covid-19.
What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic, stockpiling obscene quantities of anything that could fill a bomb shelter adequately in a post-apocalyptic world. I am scared of the N95 masks that are stolen from hospitals and urgent care clinics where they are actually needed for front line healthcare providers and instead are being donned in airports, malls, and coffee lounges, perpetuating even more fear and suspicion of others. I am scared that our hospitals will be overwhelmed with anyone who thinks they " probably don't have it but may as well get checked out no matter what because you just never know..." and those with heart failure, emphysema, pneumonia and strokes will pay the price for overfilled ER waiting rooms with only so many doctors and nurses to assess.
I am scared that travel restrictions will become so far reaching that weddings will be canceled, graduations missed and family reunions will not materialize. And well, even that big party called the Olympic Games...that could be kyboshed too. Can you even imagine?
I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession.
But mostly, I'm scared about what message we are telling our kids when faced with a threat. Instead of reason, rationality, openmindedness and altruism, we are telling them to panic, be fearful, suspicious, reactionary and self-interested.
Covid-19 is nowhere near over. It will be coming to a city, a hospital, a friend, even a family member near you at some point. Expect it. Stop waiting to be surprised further. The fact is the virus itself will not likely do much harm when it arrives. But our own behaviors and "fight for yourself above all else" attitude could prove disastrous.
I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education. We have an opportunity to learn a great deal about health hygiene and limiting the spread of innumerable transmissible diseases in our society. Let's meet this challenge together in the best spirit of compassion for others, patience, and above all, an unfailing effort to seek truth, facts and knowledge as opposed to conjecture, speculation and catastrophizing.
Facts not fear. Clean hands. Open hearts.
Our children will thank us for it.
#washurhands#geturflushot#respect#patiencenotpanic
Also, remember that, while panic can be a useful short-term incentive (although it often leads to bad decisions), it’s not a sustainable long-term emotion. Marie Vassiltchikov’s Berlin Diaries, 1940-1945 tells about her time working in Nazi Germany and helping groups within Germany that were fighting Hitler. One of the points she makes as she writes in real-time about the paranoia of the Third Reich and the terror from Allied bombings is that people adjust. What induces panic in the beginning eventually becomes tolerable, no matter how awful it is.
If Sharkawy is correct about coronavirus and the mainstream media is wrong, it won't be the end of the world and we’ll learn to live with it.
<T><><H><><E><><L><><I><><S><><T>
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